De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
This podcast is about finding calm. I talk to the experts and bring you evidence-based practical methods to help you destress and live purposefully. In my early 40’s, I bowed out of a 20 year legal career “to spend more time with the kids”. However it was more than that. Decades of running on high anxiety and drinking to cope had had its toll on my nervous system and I was burnt out. I didn’t know it at the time, but from there I started years of recovery and ultimately stepped into a new way of living. I went to rehab, retrained as a counsellor and coach, created a successful counselling practice, became a motivational & corporate wellness speaker, took up painting and now support others to destress for success.
https://isabellaferguson.com.au
De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
Sugar Addiction & Stress: Jolene Park's Nourishing Approach
Today I have THE BEST guest out there to talk about the link between sugar addiction and stress and how we can understand it better and manage it. Jolene Park, functional nutritionist, Ted X Speaker, coach of coaches and expert on sugar addiction, stress, grey area drinking and a whole lot more.
Are you addicted to sugar? Do you crave sugary treats when you are stressed? Are you like me and find yourself scoffing back cherry ripes in the car all by yourself hidden from the kids trying to get some respite from the day? In fact, sugar impacts the same neural pathways as alcohol!
For many women, sugar cravings and emotional eating is a hidden shameful struggle that we don't often talk about. Jolene discusses the biological and emotional drive behind these cravings, including the lasting influence of stress and early childhood experiences. Learn about gut microbiome imbalances, nutritional deficiencies like magnesium, and emotional triggers that create these cravings. With an emphasis on self-compassion, we uncover that cravings are messages from the body about underlying imbalances, not signs of personal failure.
Achieving holistic wellness goes beyond diet; it encompasses spiritual well-being, relationships, leisure, relaxation, and sleep. Jolene and I discuss the interconnectedness of physical and emotional health, the role of cortisol in weight management, and the benefits of nutrients like protein, magnesium, and healthy fats. Discover practical strategies for balancing your lifestyle, building resilience, and supporting overall well-being without strict deprivation.
Visit my website for additional resources and support, and don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review to help us reach more listeners.
JOLENE PARK
Coach Training: https://healthydiscoveries.mykajabi.com/nourish
Jolene's website: https://grayareadrinkers.com/
1:1 Coaching with Jolene: https://grayareadrinkers.com/private-coaching-with-jolene-park/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jolene__park
ISABELLA FERGUSON
Free resource : "AM I DRINKING TOO MUCH?" FREE 5-DAY VIDEO SERIES
My web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
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Welcome, hello. Hey, are you addicted to sugar? Do you do some crazy things with sugar sometimes when you're stressed, Like me? Sometimes I hide away in my car with cherry ripes alone and scoff them. Look, did you know also that sugar actually occupies the same neural pathways in our brain as alcohol? Well, jolene Park is my guest today. She is the gold star expert on sugar, grey area, drinking, stress and so much more. She's actually a bit of a mentor to me, although I don't think she quite knows it yet. Stay tuned. Everything she says is so valuable. Let's go. Welcome to the De-Stress for Success podcast. I'm Isabella Ferguson.
Speaker 1:In my early 40s I bowed out of a 20-year legal career. Decades of running on high anxiety and drinking alcohol to cope had taken its toll on my nervous system and I was burnt out. Now, as a 48-year-old corporate speaker, counsellor, coach, I'll interview the experts, ask the questions you wish you had the time to ask and I'll deliver some practical tips to you. I'm glad you tuned in. Now let's de-stress. Today I get to talk to Jolene Park, functional nutritionist, grey area, drinking expert, tedx speaker. I'd say one of the originals of the modern sober movement. But today we are talking about something quite different. We're going to delve into the connection between sugar and stress, which I receive a lot of emails about and have a lot of conversations with people about and might have a vested interest in myself. Jolene, I had the pleasure of meeting when I studied under her doing the Nourish Method for Coaches and Health Practitioners an amazing course. Welcome today, jolene.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Isabella. It's so good to be back with you. This is great. I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too, me too. And look if my glove box full of Cherry Ripe wrappers is any indication of my well sugar issue. I'm really excited to learn about everything you have to say. So I begin these conversations by asking every guest two questions. How do you know when you are stressed? What are your go-to methods at the moment of de-stressing?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a great question. How do I know? When I'm stressed, I'm in my head. My head is whirling and swirling and ruminating and I'm not in my body. And when I'm in my, when I'm embodied, there's a calm. There's a calm within my muscles, like they're more unclenchedched and my mind slows down. I think it's the. Yeah, it's interesting. It's like the mind is my cue, the more it starts racing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you de-stressing? What's your? Because I know that you you're a great advocate for really exploring and experimenting with lots of different options that people can find to relax, de-stress and regulate. What are you trying at the moment that's working for you?
Speaker 2:My favorite thing because you know too that I'm all about noticing, and if you don't notice something, get rid of it Like we're all busy. So don't waste your time with things because you think you should or need to. You should actually notice. You know something when you're doing these resources and the thing that I really notice is walking barefoot at sunrise on the beach, and I notice it throughout. You know, later in the day I it's, I just feel more calm and more energy and then I sleep really well.
Speaker 2:So that's that's what I noticed and it and there's no expense to going outside and walking barefoot and that direct sunlight, like I take my glasses off and I don't wear my contacts I'm so blind, so I walk down the beach and but it's, there's something about that early morning light I mean I don't look right at the sun, but early morning light and the eyes and the skin and just the hormone response with melatonin and serotonin and oxytocin and endorphins, and I, I feel it. I feel it with my energy, my sleep, my mood. It's profound. So that's my favorite thing right now is that circadian rhythm balancing with sunlight and the ground.
Speaker 1:Oh, I just loved hearing you say walking on the sand barefoot in the morning. My whole body just relaxed as I even heard you talk about it Must be why I love the beach so much as well. Sugar and stress. I work with a lot of lawyers, barristers, women that are caregivers Sugar and stress. There's always this funny old link Can we become addicted to sugar? Is it something that we can?
Speaker 2:I think, absolutely. I think it's highly addictive. And sugar and alcohol run the same pathway in the brain and alcohol breaks down into sugar glucose molecules. So we're dealing with the same piece and so if we don't get to the root, physiologically, emotionally, energetically, we just switch one substance for the other. But it's the same physiological response and it's very addictive, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what is the physical connection between chronic stress and sugar that can keep us in a loop? I've heard you talk about this loop before in one of the components of the course that I've done with you. Can we get? Is there a loop there? Would you mind explaining it?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, mean, the physiological connection is, you know everything, nothing's an island in the body. Um, you know the arm bones connected to the, you know that whole, there's a song about that or something. But, um, but insulin and adrenaline, cortisol, are very closely connected. So when one goes up, the other goes up and one goes down, and and so cortisol is the stress hormone. So when we are under stress, we, the body, deplete, you know, dumps out a lot of cortisol, and so if there's a big rush of cortisol, we need to match that with insulin, and then what goes up must come down. So we've got high cortisol and high insulin, and then the body is going to work to pull that down, and then, when that comes down, then we have low insulin, and now we're craving sugar, and we have because we don't want to have too low blood sugar.
Speaker 2:And when cortisol is low, we, you know that's our energy, and so then we want sugar, and then what goes up must come down. So that's the loop. It's just this. It's a roller coaster cortisol and insulin surge and then they drop, and then they surge, and and that happens by our, you know, by not sleeping, by actually eating sugar, by not eating by going long periods without eating, like that whole kind of roller coaster. There's different mechanisms that contribute to it, and so so the key, then, is regulating cortisol and insulin.
Speaker 1:How do we do that?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I'm a physiology first person, so I, you know, I believe very much in and then the science backs me up on this that we start with the physiology before the psychology. And so the physiology. If this is happening with insulin and cortisol, then we want to meet it physically. And one of you know the best ways to do that is with protein, Because protein will stunt and blunt that spike and dip. When we continue to eat carbohydrates, starchy, flowery grain, out and out sugar, sweet drinks, it just continues to go up and down. When you put protein in there, it level it. You get more kind of a level, even keel mode of blood sugar for about four hours. So protein is is one of the best things you can do, and and any type of beans are also one of the things which can.
Speaker 2:also, you know, they can be a protein source as well, but beans with the soluble fiber, they soak up adrenaline and they stabilize blood sugar. So I just I love beans for curbing sugar cravings and for really getting in there and and blunting and stunting that whole insulin cortisol piece. So going, you know, meeting physical with physical, physical adrenaline and insulin with physical protein and beans is a great foundation to begin with.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that is something that I it was a key piece of information that I took away from you that I talk to clients about, particularly when you're really stressed or you're in those early days of giving up alcohol regular hits of protein in your diet every four hours, starting with breakfast. It's amazing how many women will just skip food. You'll have your coffee on an empty tummy and then there'll be sort of nothing really nutritious throughout the day and you get to three o'clock and I imagine at that time you're more susceptible than for really reaching for the sugar. It's that three o'clock slump and people go a bit crazy, ie me. It also seems to me that our body is almost craving predictability as well as routine. You're kind of trying to pull it out of routine. You're kind of trying to pull it out of flight fight mode in some sense. So I imagine having a fairly good, consistent routine with nutrition exercise is something that would help as well is to sort of help with those cortisol spike.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so predictability is is that emotional nutrient? It's a, it's a regulation. It gives the cue to to the brain and the nervous system that we're safe. So the body's always reading the environment moment to moment is there a threat or are we safe?
Speaker 2:And predictability gives the message of we're safe, Whereas when things are chaotic and there isn't a routine, there isn't predictability, then that in and of itself releases cortisol, because, you know, preparing to either flee or fight because there isn't a sense of safety. Predictability and, as you know too, I'm a big believer in the going back to the basics. You know, the little things don't consistently make a big deal, make a big impact, and so there really is something to just that consistency of predictable eating. I mean, we all know with small babies, if they don't eat on a predictable routine schedule, what it's chaos, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean they're miserable, we're miserable. Small babies have to have that routine Because there's a safety, there's a, there's a rhythm that the nervous system runs on. And so, as adults, we let that, you know, go out the window and we go long periods without eating. And I know it's not sexy, I mean, I know it's not a regular eating, but I also, you know, with this work it's it's so much of like don't take my word for it like experience it yes give yourself seven days.
Speaker 2:don't just listen to me, you know, talk about it, but actually try it like actually eat some protein within 30 to 60 minutes of waking, if you know, if you're really trying to get past the sugar craving piece and then eat regularly for seven days, like every four hours, eat again, eat some protein, and and if you're just like I feel no different, this was that you know there's no change, then then great, I mean that's the, that's the not great, but that your nervous system needs something else, because not everything is for everyone. But this is such a foundational biological piece for so many people that most people it's noticeable they're not there. It's not like I don't know. I mean I didn't. I don't really know if I noticed something one way or the other.
Speaker 2:It's usually pretty profound with regular protein, where people are like I mean, I'm blown away, like I thought this would be kind of silly and it's like kind of simplistic, but when they do it it's notable. And we can also see it on blood results, like when I work from the nutrition standpoint. After about six weeks, triglycerides come down. Cholesterol can stabilize and regulate fasting. Glucose can look better by eating protein on a regular basis. So some of it's objective, but it's also objective as well.
Speaker 1:For many people, for many women, this pull towards sugar can be quite a hidden, shameful thing. The conversations that I've had are really interesting. Like I've got a friend that you know she'll go up and get a big bag of chocolate. She'll close the door in her office and just knock it back like she's out of control, like she's lost control with it. I've got another friend that will have this Nutella jar in the cupboard and it will just be pulling her mind towards it and then she'll be taking scoops out, then more, then more, then more. Before you know it you are just feeling so unwell and you're thinking, oh, again now I'm just feeling like crap. So this is a wonderful conversation. Crap, so this is a wonderful conversation. It's sort of giving us those practical tips on. Well, it's not just us and our lack of control. There's actually a bit of a biological drive here that's pulling us towards sugar. Now, is it a generational thing? Is it something that can sort of run in families? This stress, sugar emotional loop?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. This is the epigenetics of you know. These patterns are passed on. So when we get squeezed, what's kind of the weak point? And for some people it's that sugar point and it's an epigenetic pattern that is passed on. For some it's that pattern of alcohol, for you know it's. So.
Speaker 2:Yes, there can be a generational piece and I actually wrote down. There's a study I'm aware of in the Scientific America 2019. And studies suggest that people who experienced a lot of stress in childhood have a stronger preference for sweets later in life. There are very direct connections with that early adversity and not feeling nurtured, protected, guided. That feeling seen, soothed. You know all those kind of regulating. It's not always what happened to us, but sometimes it's what didn't happen, yeah, and just some of that developmental trauma or, you know, because caregivers were otherwise occupied or and couldn't kind of soothe and it wasn't abusive, but just couldn't soothe in the way that was needed in in the time. And so sugar initially feels soothing, it's. It can get kind of that, it can slow down the system, kind of that leather, lethargic, grounded comfort, um, and so it becomes that emotional piece and so you were talking about you know, some people you know about like oh, kind, hiding, you know, with the chocolate.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I mean I certainly don't come to this conversation as a purist of, like I never eat sugar, have never. I mean that was my entry into alcohol, was, I was, you know, sugar, I was a sugar binge binger and then I found to just relax, you know, like I said, said the beginning to slow my mind down, to soothe, and then I discovered alcohol in my late 20s because I would kind of take it or leave it. But I discovered it and where it really shut my mind off and I thought what am I doing with sugar? Like alcohol is such a quick elixir, so I don't come to this conversation. You know a purist standing on kind of you know the high level here talking down. I mean this is a conversation near and dear to my heart, with my own experience, and it's always, you know, it's given ourself grace of when there's that like I want to eat the chocolate or kind of hide. And you know, first of all it's the curiosity of where what's possibly deficient or depleted. And if the gut microbiome is off, like if there's an overgrowth of candida and candy, you know, if you grow yeast in a Petri dish, what makes it go is the sugar. And so sometimes you know, again, this isn't like a psychological, there's something wrong with me and why can't I get control around sugar. If there's these microbes, you know, in the gut they're saying feed me, feed me. That you know it can be, it can be that too, and and it's, it's. There's a lot of you know, different components to that. But then also emotionally that, but then also emotionally like what's what? What are we feeding? That's not feeding us in return, or what in life is weighing us down? And and if we unhook from that, then we can let you know the weight go. Or what are we trying to protect? Yeah, with weight. And so there's so much to this conversation.
Speaker 2:Or when hormones are low, you know, if GABA is low or progesterone is low, then what mimics? That is the kind of soothing comfort of alcohol, of sugar. And this has nothing to do with not having kind of the strength to override a sugar craving. I mean, we cannot override physiological processes If the insulin is high, if GABA is low, if what. So we need to go in and regulate those and it's just the body giving us a message of like I'm just regulated, it's here. You know, something's depleted, something's deficient. We're not deficient as a person. But we might have, you know, there might be a deficiency with iron, with B12, with GABA. And when things are out of balance, the body's craving things to bring things back into balance. So I have so much grace and compassion around the craving.
Speaker 2:It's like, ooh, that's so interesting, like maybe we need magnesium. I mean that's so interesting, like maybe we need magnesium. I mean that's that's a kind of a common one. It's such a common needed mineral that does so many functions in the body and it's pretty well known that if we're low in magnesium we can crave sugar. So getting those basics of regular eating, some protein, maybe some Epsom salt baths soaking in salt magnesium goes to the skin or taking magnesium at night you know there's a lot of. I always say when we go back to the basics, it can cover a lot of bases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Everything you say has just made so much sense has just made so much sense Particularly. A comment that I hear quite regularly is and I think you've basically covered it as well, but just in the hormonal cycle that women can crave sugar at a certain point in that cycle more than any other parts of their cycle, and it must be to do with various dips of their hormones and neurotransmitters that are pulling them towards it.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. And we need more energy at certain times of our cycle, like the actual bleed. It takes a lot of energy in the body for that physiological process. So the body's saying I need energy to support this process and so to deny it and suppress it. And you know we can. We can have sweet food without necessarily, like you know, a total candy bar. I mean, yeah, I'm not saying don't ever eat a candy bar, but there's ways to have that sweetness, you know, like a sweet potato, or you know there's sweet berries and that type of thing. And the body is really calling for that, for that energy. The monthly bleed is a big physiological demand on the body.
Speaker 1:You know I've said it so often before that I have certainly had a propensity to reach for sugar and when you were talking about um children that might have reached for sugar as kids, I most certainly was one of those um kids and I can remember, remember walking around with a massive, massive M&M's packet in my jacket and that was just mine to self-soothe as I sort of walked around as I was shipped off to a university out of state, being really stressed. Sugar was my go-to and I don't think I really recognised it. And most certainly now, on days when I am so overwhelmed I'm tired, I've just been working so hard. One of my things that I need to try and stop is that pull towards just wanting to go into bed get some Tim Tams and put a show on that for me is just the ultimate de-stressor. That is an unhealthy version of de-stressing.
Speaker 1:So it's a real sign that something has to give. There's something else my body needs and I'm loving all of the tips that you've got that if that is something that you're in a loop of, there are things we can do. There are things we can do. So I know we've spoken about it, but what would be your hot tips if you're just finding yourself in a bit of a stress, fatigue, state, sugar shame loop. Where should men and women go to first?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, you mentioned how you innately knew that you, you know, want to just go to bed, yeah, and so I, I think you know, first and foremost not always trying to that we have to override something. So when, when we have deep rest and sleep, that rebuilds the neurotransmitters, and when our neurotransmitters are depleted, then we, you know, our energy is low, our mood is low. So then we tend to reach to sugar to boost our mood, boost our energy. So sometimes just that stillness and the sleep, and not always the constant hustle in and of itself, can be, you know, a way to like if the body's always hustling, it needs energy to hustle. If there's never any downtime, we've got to fuel that some way. So sleep can be one of the best weight loss drugs.
Speaker 2:I know we're not necessarily talking about weight loss, but just rest in and of itself and giving ourselves that grace to rest. But I just like to kind of always look at the comprehensive side of, you know, nourishing ourselves. It's not just about what we eat. So I mentioned some of the things of protein and magnesium and you know, good, healthy fats, like you know, those are good nutrients. But also nourishing ourselves spiritually and with relationships and with leisure and the emotion, or you know, the relaxation, and there's been studies to and there's been reports. I think NPR here in the in the US did a story on the cortisol connection and weight loss and people would go to the beach or go on the cruise and they're eating sugary, starchy food but they'd come home and be down like five pounds. So some people go on vacation and you know they're up five pounds, but that's me what they were. The point they were making is that they were in a relaxed state so their cortisol came down and then their insulin came down.
Speaker 2:And it's not always about what we eat and it is. I mean we can use food to be, you know, supportive, but it's also, it's not the only piece. So the point is, is that you know, having that leisure, vital nutrients like what you know, what do, what do people do for fun? That also feeds them, how do they relax and settle their nervous system and are they getting deep, nourishing sleep? Is there, you know, a community that they can, they feel really fed in and nourished by, and the spiritual side. So I would say, you know, it's kind of the things that we've mentioned, but also, just looking at that comprehensive approach, that it's not always and everybody's different. Not everything works for every person.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing echoes of your amazing nourish method that we can apply to helping people drink less to sugar as well. You know it's the full 360 approach to well. Let's look at all aspects to see how you're regulated, how you're coping, how you're connected. We can also apply that to sugar. That makes a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 2:It's funny you say that because I'm right in the middle of re-recording some things for my nourish coach training, so it's very much on the front of my brain. I've been talking about, about that piece, so that's.
Speaker 1:That's where my my brain has been yeah, jolly, you'll love this. Uh, I'm week one into running a six-week. We call it a six-week challenge. We're a bunch of women eight to 10 of us. They're all wanting to drink less and we've just done the last week of really delving into everything that I've learned from you when it comes to nourish. And let's approach the physiology first before we go into some of our cognitive stuff. It always works so beautifully.
Speaker 1:They have looked at some of the work that I learnt from you around how to gauge what you're deficient in terms of your neurotransmitters, Screaming GABA. They were all just super low in GABA. And, of course, if you're deficient in GABA, you've got a bit anxious, you're a bit panicky. You crave alcohol. I suspect you crave sugar as well. It has empowered them so much to really look at lifestyle changes, nutritional changes that they can do to get this to, I guess, gain resilience in their own nervous system to support themselves with alcohol, and I can see also a connection there with sugar. Gosh, the work you do is just. It's backed by the evidence and the data and how people feel. It's very empowering.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 2:You know, it's so liberating when we look at it through the physiological lens because that's another piece, you know where we've looked at it cognitively and like, oh, I need to do better and mentally figure this out and intellectually understand it more, and that just makes anybody want to go to the bar or the bakery.
Speaker 2:So but when we look at it of like it's this amazing physiology and it's truly fascinating and amazing. And and when we work with it and not against it. And I mean the body's just trying to keep us alive and keep us in that optimal state. I mean, moment to moment it's working to keep pH levels balanced and keep our blood sugar balanced and different minerals in this balance, and so, and understanding and kind of that appreciation of like it's so cool what my body's doing. Now I just want, I want to work with it instead of against it, and with that too, I also want to say that you know, this isn't about this purist kind of perfectionistic thing. So I think sometimes we get into that too of like no sugar, and sugar is bad and I want to be good and you, you know there's excited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gets really messy and um, and you know, sometimes the sweetness in life is to just have a really, you know, yummy, delicious, fresh made scone in London with the clotted cream and jam, and you know. And so it's not. It's not about like complete deprivation and everybody's different and everybody has a scale of like, kind of where their tolerance and tipping point is. But but you know, sometimes I'll say to or I will say to clients, you know, around sugar or it's like, so what's the negative ramification, like you were saying, like when you eat those M&Ms, yeah, and, and sometimes, often there isn't, and the positive is it was soothing and it was a little sweetness when it was just a hard afternoon and what was the damage? It did Nothing.
Speaker 2:And so I think we also need to just kind of name that too, that this isn't about this like this perfect. I never eat sugar, I never. And again, some people with with you know different intolerances where their gut microbiome is and kind of where they tip into like a real addictive process Everybody. You know you have to work with the individual, but often when I talk to people, a little sugar here and there, even when it's just like I am eating emotionally, I need this comfort. I'm going for it. It's this space I'm in, and when we name it we can just kind of take the heaviness out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to add as part of this conversation?
Speaker 2:I guess I would just emphasize and highlight with this conversation those listening you know, take it of what you can add in with this instead of taking away. Yes, there's great benefit to from inflammation, from you know the whole thing, to really reducing sugar. We know that.
Speaker 2:But now, knowing that the focus on adding things in that that you actually want that and there's so many healthy discoveries out there and healthy things that do feel good, that do bring sweetness to your life and so turning you know anytime we think of like can't have, don't do have to restrict, that's not going to work, but switching it to, I get to and I get to get curious and there's. You know, there's so many fun techniques and biohacks and things to try, and when we kind of frame it in that lens around this conversation, I think it just helps set us up for more success.
Speaker 1:Thank you, jolene. What would you like people to know about your services, what you have on the horizon where they can go to find you?
Speaker 2:well, I train coaches in this technique and in this method which you've been trained in it's brilliant yeah, yeah, second to none amazing thank you.
Speaker 2:So, um, applications are open. I do a rolling, rolling interviews and applications and I'm starting a new coach. I've been training coaches since 2018. And I've got a new cohort coming this Monday, so that probably won't be time by the time this drops, but the applications are open, so the next one will be September 2024. But if you're hearing this even after that that timestamp, just check my website for you know. The next ongoing enrollment, grayareadrinkerscom, is where all my programs, training information, my TED talk and coaching information is on that website.
Speaker 1:And of course we're going to put links and all of that information in the show notes. Jolene, just thank you for sharing your knowledge. Thank you for taking time out of your gosh busy schedule. Particularly if you've got a cohort starting on Monday, you must be just jam-packed with things to do on that list. I've just been looking forward to this conversation so much. I know great value will be received from our listeners. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, it was fun.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the content, please don't forget to rate, subscribe or leave a review about this podcast. Subscribe or leave a review about this podcast. These three things really help to get this podcast out to people that might need to hear it. You can find me at wwwisabellafergusoncomau. Jump on my website. Check out all the resources I've got there about alcohol, stress and burnout. You can also book in a free introductory call. It's a 30-minute confidential chat. If you are looking for a counsellor or a coach to support you to drink less or to manage your stress, I'm always here to chat. If you've got a question, please do not hesitate to reach out. I hope you have a really good day. See you later.
