De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
This podcast is about finding calm. I talk to the experts and bring you evidence-based practical methods to help you destress and live purposefully. In my early 40’s, I bowed out of a 20 year legal career “to spend more time with the kids”. However it was more than that. Decades of running on high anxiety and drinking to cope had had its toll on my nervous system and I was burnt out. I didn’t know it at the time, but from there I started years of recovery and ultimately stepped into a new way of living. I went to rehab, retrained as a counsellor and coach, created a successful counselling practice, became a motivational & corporate wellness speaker, took up painting and now support others to destress for success.
https://isabellaferguson.com.au
De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
How to Set Boundaries With Dr Rebecca Ray - People Pleasers Tune in!
Have you ever felt stretched too thin, saying 'yes' when every fibre of your being screams 'no'? Well look no further. Today we are joined by Dr. Rebecca Ray, clinical psychologist and author of Setting Boundaries.
We talk about what a boundary is, when to know you ought to actively set one, how to do it and how to enforce it. We also chat about why some people seem to innately know how to set boundaries, whereas others seem to struggle and need to be taught how to do so. If you tend towards the people pleasing spectrum, then do tune because we specifically talk about why people-pleasing habits, especially common among women, can lead to resentment and burnout in the absence of solid boundaries. These are life skills that we can learn at any time and are necessary in order to healthy maintain our well-being.
We chat about the significant impact of leadership in creating a culture of respect for boundaries in the workplace as well as the importance of parents setting an example for their children in how to develop healthy boundaries. My own transition from a high-stress legal career to a counsellor and coach shines a light on the importance of aligning actions with values and ensuring that your brain health remains a top priority.
Dr Ray's book, Setting Boundaries is gold and serves as a 'user manual' for smoother interactions and stress reduction in our everyday lives.
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ISABELLA FERGUSON
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Oftentimes, this is what habitual people pleasers do. You know they're so concerned about being a good girl. It's often women that do this. They're so concerned with not being judged negatively and not doing anything wrong and not making anyone else uncomfortable that they perpetually turn themselves inside out and upside down to make someone else happy. But what that does is it ends with them being simmering balls of resentment until eventually they will erupt like a volcano. You know it's active, but it's not currently erupting. I was going to say exploding, that's not the word I wanted. It's not currently erupting. People, places will eventually erupt All of us will if our boundaries aren't in place regularly enough.
Speaker 2:So much to learn from Dr Rebecca Ray in this episode about boundaries. How do you know when you need better ones, new ones, how to enforce them? Why do some people just know how to set boundaries more effectively than others? So stay tuned. Plus, I've a few spots left in my new Alcohol Freedom Group Challenge. If you want to drink less, if this is one of your goals, jump onto my website to grab your spot.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the De-Stress for Success podcast. Did you know that we inherit our stress response from our parents or carers or generations before? But we can also train our brain to respond to stress differently. It's all about brain health. I'm Isabella Ferguson and I'm here to deliver to you the most up-to-date, evidence-based methodologies on how to find some calm.
Speaker 2:In my early 40s, I bowed out of a 20-year legal career. Decades of running on high anxiety and drinking alcohol to cope had taken its toll on my nervous system and I was burnt out. Now, as a 48-year-old corporate speaker, counsellor, coach, I'll interview the experts, ask the questions you wish you had the time to ask and I'll deliver some practical tips to you. I'm glad you tuned in. Now let's de-stress. Dr Rebecca Ray is a clinical psychologist, speaker and author of some amazing books, several of which I have heavily bookmarked on my bookshelf. They're like go-to life guides for me. Dr Ray has been a guest on De-Stressed before talking about difficult people, a conversation which really resonated with listeners and clients far and wide. So today we're talking about boundaries, and Dr Ray has an amazing book on this topic as well, called Setting Boundaries. Welcome back, dr Ray.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, Isabella. It's a pleasure to be back.
Speaker 2:Thank you Look, I ask everybody that's on about how they're managing their stress levels. It's March 2024. The year is well underway. How are you presently keeping track on and managing your stress levels at the moment?
Speaker 1:Values alignment. For me, my stress goes up and down depending on where I'm at with, because a lot of my work is project based, especially when I'm currently writing the next book. So when I'm in book writing mode, you know, I'm either procrastinating or I'm writing. So at the moment I'm procrastinating because I'm doing interviews like this, but what I try to do is you know, I have all sorts of little stress management strategies, but if we're talking about a global stress management strategy, the one that's featuring most for me is very much is this a good use of my energy? And the way that I evaluate whether or not it's a good use of my energy is by coming back to is it serving one of my values? So that's like my anchor. It allows me to come back to the here and now and it allows me to notice when I've drifted too far away. So too far away from centre, where centre is the values that keep me on track for the life that I want to live.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's such a good answer and is probably segues well into boundary setting and the conversations around boundaries, because it is a life skill and it often crops up as a conversation around stress and burnout, unhealthy coping behaviours just about everything I can think of to keep us sane in life. How would you define what a boundary is?
Speaker 1:I really love this question because I think my definition is different to the dictionary.
Speaker 1:So, if you went into the dictionary, I think the definition is something along the lines of a dividing line, and that's what most people consider it to be. Most people consider a boundary to be a line of division, whereas I much prefer to consider it as a line of connection. I think that when we're developing boundaries, I see them as circles of empowerment and self-preservation that allow you to really make decisions according to who you want to be in the life that you want to live, based on the personal resources that you have available. So personal resources of things like time, money, all the different types of energy mental, emotional, physical, psychological as well as things that you can't necessarily, you know, see tangibly, like the amount of care that you offer someone else or the amount of space you have to offer or the skills and knowledge that you're giving someone access to. So, if we think about having those personal resources, in giving tanks within us, a boundary is about you deciding who gets access to those personal resources and when.
Speaker 2:Thank you Such a good answer. I imagine that when you've got some pretty intense feelings like resentment, anger, fatigue, I guess even catastrophizing thoughts, they can be signs. I imagine that you might need some healthier boundaries put in place. Is that right? Or are there other signs that we have internally that we should call on to know when there's some need for better boundaries?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're generally the ones that I talk about. So I think I really get people to kind of look out for irritation, frustration, anger and resentment, especially resentment. Resentment is I kind of talk about this place called Resentmentville. You know, like if you don't set boundaries then soon enough assuming that you've let people have access to you for long enough that inevitably you will get frustrated. You will end up in a little town called Resentmentville and you're allowed to visit Resentmentville. Sometimes we have to go there to know where our boundaries are, because sometimes you actually don't know a boundary exists until it's crossed.
Speaker 1:Um, we can't always know what our boundaries are and what they look like. However, I don't want you to buy real estate there, and oftentimes this is what habitual people pleasers do. You know they're so concerned about being, uh, a good girl. It's often women that do this that's so concerned about being a good girl. It's often women that do this that are so concerned with not being judged negatively and not doing anything wrong and not making anyone else uncomfortable that they perpetually turn themselves inside out and upside down to make someone else happy. But what that does is it ends with them being simmering balls of resentment until eventually they will erupt like a volcano. You know it's active, but it's not currently erupting. I was going to say exploding, that's not the word I wanted. It's not currently erupting. People-pleasers will eventually erupt All of us will if our boundaries aren't in place regularly enough.
Speaker 2:So some people have better boundaries than others and I tend to gravitate towards people that have really firm boundaries, because it kind of gives me a rule book and I feel calmer, I know what the rules are, I know how to operate, and then it makes me feel it's like a permission for me to then set my own firm boundaries with that person. It's kind of it works that way. Why do some people know how to do it and some people like me, where you have to learn you and you had to develop them later on in life?
Speaker 1:I think that speaks to.
Speaker 1:There are many adults out there who were not respected as children by their parents or by their grown-ups.
Speaker 1:And if you've been raised by grown-ups who didn't allow you to have boundaries or didn't respect you when you tried to speak up for your own needs, then you can land in adolescence and adulthood assuming that, a you're not allowed to have boundaries and B if you try to speak up for your own needs, then you can land in adolescence and adulthood assuming that A you're not allowed to have boundaries and B if you try to have them no one will listen to you or you'll be shamed or punished, or you'll simply just be dismissed or ignored.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like for those people who have parents who don't foster an environment of healthy boundaries. You then have to learn the hard way the consequences of living in an adult world with no boundaries. And that's not necessarily your fault, because as children we always do what helps us to survive in that environment. And if you had to be boundary-less in order to be acceptable or in order to be loved and I'm putting loved in inverted commas for our listeners, because sometimes what parents call love is not what I would call love then you develop patterns that are not at all helpful for healthy adult relationships. So in adulthood, when you're interacting with another adult who has healthy boundaries, you can make an assumption that they were either raised in healthy ways or they've done the work in adulthood to learn what boundaries are and are consciously practicing those boundaries on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:That really makes sense. So it's practising them and having the confidence to enforce them in some ways, and I'm also hearing that it can come down to a real sense of self-worth and I guess your value systems as well, knowing when to enforce them and when to protect them as well, knowing when to enforce them and when to protect them how do you go about finding the confidence to start enforcing your boundaries?
Speaker 1:You don't, and I think this is a really important question for you to ask, because throughout both setting boundaries and difficult people, I talk a lot about the fact that brains need evidence in order to develop self-belief.
Speaker 1:So self-belief doesn't come first, the evidence comes first, the practice comes first, the action comes first, and so many people are kind of sitting there waiting to feel this sense of emotional confidence, to be able to do something that feels vulnerable or risky in their relationships. Yes, and you know, the bad news is you're not going to feel ready. If boundaries feel unfamiliar and scary to you, then you know, like learning to drive a car feels unfamiliar and scary when you first start. The only way to actually build the evidence in your brain to do that is to drive the car, and so boundaries are exactly the same. You need to practice setting boundaries in order for your brain to register that setting boundaries is available to you. Now, that's not to say that I'm, then, just going to suggest that you go out into the big wide world and set boundaries with every single person that comes across your path yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not throwing you to the lines. However, you do need to practice, even when it feels uncomfortable. So I will say to that that I would prefer that you practice initially with someone who's psychologically safe for you, and by psychological safety I mean someone that you know has your best interests at heart genuinely, not just someone that says they has your best interests at heart genuinely, not just someone that says they have your best interests at heart but then manipulates you or gaslights you. Someone you trust and someone you know you can go to and not be judged by. You can simply start with the smallest of boundaries, and it might be something as simple. As you know, can we have dinner at 6.30 instead of 7.30, because I'm going home at this time so that I get enough sleep tonight? You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a huge thing and then you can slowly build up to boundaries that feel more complex for you.
Speaker 2:I really like that. It's doable and it feels safe and you can probably start setting them in ways that other people may not even recognize that you're. You know you're consciously asserting yourself. It can just be sort of gentle boundaries to start with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, or you can even tell those friends that are safe for you, or family members. I'm practicing. Can you give me a hand, you know? Can I practice this conversation with you, the conversation that I want to have with my mother or my father or whoever it is in your life, my boss? You can practice those conversations consciously, but I think sometimes we dramatize boundary setting and how uncomfortable it will be because we anticipate reactions that perhaps we experienced as children or even that we've experienced in toxic relationships before now. And you know, it doesn't always end up that way.
Speaker 1:Oftentimes people will accept our boundaries, like you said, because it acts as a user manual that takes away the guesswork, and I think that's one of the most profound things that we can give each other Initially. When you, for example, let's take our conversation via my assistant prior to this interview. When you, for example, let's take our conversation via my assistant prior to this interview, when you'd asked if I could talk about addictions and alcohol and my response was not my area of expertise. I can certainly talk around it, but I'm not the person that you need. If that's your primary topic, I would suggest that you get a specialist in and then we negotiate a topic that feels more within my strong suit and we then come and discuss that. That way, we're both exactly on the right page.
Speaker 1:Now, one of the things that happens then is you don't take it personally, but you also know that you're getting what you need.
Speaker 1:I'm not showing up and saying yes to a topic that I then feel like I'm floundering through and giving you a shit interview about. You know, I want to give you the best I can offer, which means it needs to be a certain topic. Now, when you're in a relationship and you're showing up and showing someone your authentic self like that whether it be your expertise at work or your area of competency, or whether it be who you want to be for that person that you're interacting with you're giving them permission to also say what they need. So you could have easily have come back to me and said oh thanks, beck, it's a, it's an alcohol expert that I really am looking for at this point in time, or an addictions expert, so I'm going to go elsewhere at this time, and it would have been absolutely fine. This is what we're actually doing when we're interacting is saying this is what I need, are you available for what I need and also is this like a transaction that works for both of us?
Speaker 2:Oh, I really like the example that you just gave and also that it is a user manual. It's kind of setting the scene about. You know how we're going to work together. For the next moment With boundaries, dr Ray, does it get to the point where you outgrow certain boundaries? So you might need to kind of remodel and reshape your boundaries at various points in your life. And I'm just saying that, for example, you know, as a young lawyer I can remember my boundaries were probably at work a whole lot more flexible and unhealthy to some extent, because you just want to people please, you want to go, go, go, you want to impress certain people. And then I hit sort of a point where I had to leave with burnout, probably because I hadn't shown up then for myself and reset those boundaries. But I learned?
Speaker 1:I've learned since then Absolutely. My career was defined by burnout as well, because I violated my own internal boundaries and I'm no longer in clinical practice as a result. But I also look back on my time as an intern and think, oh, you poor baby like you should never have been put in those situations. And yet, because I wanted to be a good girl and because I wanted to prove myself, I allowed myself to be in those situations that were absolutely inappropriate. And so, in answer to your question, do our boundaries evolve? Absolutely yes, but I think they evolve not just in our workplace or workplaces or work lives, but I think they evolve across our lifespans and across our relationships as well, and I think we need to make space for our boundaries to change based on the chapter of life.
Speaker 1:So I know, since becoming a mother, I have a six-year-old. My boundaries are so much stronger and so much well defended when it comes to him, because he doesn't have a voice. I mean, he does have a voice. He never bloody stops talking His bound. You wouldn't be surprised, would you? He's got my genetics. But when he so he's in a family where he can speak up, his voice is respected. However, when it comes to other adults, I'm the first to defend his boundaries if those boundaries are there and those boundaries are sometimes very difficult for other people to take because I don't particularly care whether they like those boundaries or not if those boundaries fit the psychological safety of my child. So that sometimes means that I'm disappointing grandparents or I'm disappointing people that want to see his face on social media but I refuse to post his face because those things are important to me.
Speaker 1:So I think it's really important that you think about what are the boundaries that you need in this particular life chapter. And it could be that you're unwell let's say, Maybe you've got COVID for the fourth time or something like that, or long COVID, and it's taken such a toll on your physical health that your boundaries around your psychological health as well need to be even tighter. Or it could be that you know what. You're in a place where you're no longer going to take the shit in the workplace that you took when you're in your 20s or even in your 30s, and you're in a place now where you want to change that, or whether you're no longer going to take your own crap because you've been violating your own boundaries and you're so. I guess what's the word? Destabilized is the word that I want from your own values that you're just jack of it and you want to do something different.
Speaker 2:Yes, I can certainly recognize that in me in certain aspects of my life. So it really probably goes without saying that good leadership in workplaces require leaders to have good boundaries and also to then encourage people that are working in their workplace to you know you're role modelling good behaviours and you're respecting other people's. You know boundaries as well and I guess it also as parents with our own kids, we're kind of role modelling that behaviour as well and respecting our kids' boundaries to give them the confidence to be able to grow as adults with some pretty firm, healthy boundaries around them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:I think we just need to. I did a. I recently was at a speaking event where I was talking about boundaries and someone asked the most amazing question. She said um, what do you do when someone calls something a boundary? But it is actually an excuse for them to be incredibly inconsiderate and not think about other people and her. Her example was that she was living with a flatmate, um, and then two other flatmates one who had to get up at 5am each morning for work and the flatmate who said it was her boundary chose to cook and play music as late as 11pm each night.
Speaker 1:Wow, and said well, no, I'm not going to change my behavior, that's my boundary. My boundary is that I want to do this, and my response to that is that's not a boundary. That's just plain inconsiderate. Like, that's just ridiculous. And I think when we're talking about leadership in the workplace or when we're talking about healthy relationships or even parenting our children because children need boundaries as well we need to draw a distinction between what is you just trying to get away with something because it's convenient, versus what is a legitimate boundary. So, as leaders, we also want to model the fact that accountability and responsibility is important. As parents, we want to model those things as well. We want to make sure that people are, or kids are, contributing to family systems and all that kind of stuff. We're not just using the word boundaries so that humans can get away with behaviour that fits for them but actually takes away the rights from other people.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, dr Rebecca Ray. It has been a lovely chat about boundaries, good reminders around why it's important to have them, why our boundaries can shift, and if you're having that sort of niggling feelings that there's an interaction with somebody that's just leaving you feeling a little bit at odds, then maybe there's a boundary there that ought to be reset or reinforced. But what I love about your books, dr A, is that they're roadmaps. You give examples and you give us the courage to go out and, you know, really get out there in the world and act in the way that can make us feel more confident going forward.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks, isabella. Thank you, that's a lovely compliment, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for being on De-Stress once again, thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed the content, please don't forget to rate, subscribe or leave a review about this podcast. These three things really help to get this podcast out to people that might need to hear it. You can find me at wwwisabellafergusoncomau. Jump on my website. Check out all the resources I've got there about alcohol, stress and burnout. You can also book in a free introductory call. It's a 30-minute confidential chat. If you are looking for a counsellor or a coach to support you to drink less or to manage your stress, I'm always here to chat. If you've got a question, please do not hesitate to reach out. I hope you have a really good day. See you later. Thank you.
