De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
This podcast is about finding calm. I talk to the experts and bring you evidence-based practical methods to help you destress and live purposefully. In my early 40’s, I bowed out of a 20 year legal career “to spend more time with the kids”. However it was more than that. Decades of running on high anxiety and drinking to cope had had its toll on my nervous system and I was burnt out. I didn’t know it at the time, but from there I started years of recovery and ultimately stepped into a new way of living. I went to rehab, retrained as a counsellor and coach, created a successful counselling practice, became a motivational & corporate wellness speaker, took up painting and now support others to destress for success.
https://isabellaferguson.com.au
De-Stress For Success with Isabella Ferguson
Finding Sleep in the Face of Stress: Expert Advice from Professor Michael Gradisar
Today on De-Stress for Success, we are joined by Professor Michael Gradisar, Director and Clinical Psychologist at Wink Sleep in Australia, to chat about the connection between our sleep patterns and stress levels.
Professor Gradisar breaks it down for us. From debunking the harm done by watching TV in bed to highlighting the negative impacts of alcohol on REM sleep, this episode will make you rethink your pre-sleep rituals. We also explore the value of sleep education, mind body scans, cognitive behavioural therapy to help deal with those late night ruminations and how and when a sleep coach or sleep psychologist can help you.
With a focus on creating an environment conducive to good sleep, this episode will inspire you to value your sleep time and equip you with the tools to make the most of it.
PROFESSOR GRADISAR
To learn more about the Professor Gradisar's services, goto: https://winksleep.online
SLEEP CYCLE APP, SLEEP PODCAST, AND MIND BODY SCAN (AS REFERRED TO IN THIS PODCAST)
Sleep Cycle app: www.sleepcycle.com
The Matt Walker Podcast: https://spotify.link/1TG2QQyK3Db
Body Scan for Sleep: https://youtu.be/Euy4YsK_Bgc?si=uxYL7pHD68qQJErw
ALCOHOL AND SLEEP
To learn more about alcohol and sleep, head to episode 8 of the Not Drinking Today Podcast.
ISABELLA FERGUSON
To learn more about my services or to book in a no obligation 30 minute chat, head to: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
ISABELLA FERGUSON
Free resource : "AM I DRINKING TOO MUCH?" FREE 5-DAY VIDEO SERIES
My web: https://isabellaferguson.com.au
ALCOHOL FREEDOM GROUP CHALLENGES - JOIN THE CHALLENGE!: Learn more and join in
30 MINUTE NO OBLIGATION INTRODUCTORY CALL: Book a introductory call
SIGNATURE 6 WEEK ALCOHOL FREE ONLINE SELF-PACED CHALLENGE: Learn more and get started!
FOLLOW ME
instagram: @alcoholandstresswithisabella
linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/isabella-ferguson-52022b242
Today on the podcast, we're joined by Professor Michael Grattazar. He is the Director and Clinical Psychologist at Wink Sleep in Australia. He's a professor, sleep researcher and sleep psychologist and he's here to talk to us all about the connection between stress and sleep. Welcome, Michael.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. Lovely to see you.
Speaker 1:So, michael, I might just ask you the question I ask all guests that come on how do you know when you're feeling stressed, what are the signs and what's your go to way of dealing with it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an excellent question. I'm because the first year out of high school, I ended up getting incredibly stressed and I didn't know what was going on. In fact I was. I was going to lectures, I started out, started out studying architecture and obviously that didn't to eventually, but I would go to these lectures and start to feel nauseous and I was like what's going on? And to cut a long story short, after all of the medical tests, it was concluded that I was suffering from panic attacks.
Speaker 1:Oh right.
Speaker 2:So I really got to learn to really identify what were the symptoms, what were the signs, how did they escalate, what order did they come in? And it's it's been a fascinating ride because I really looked at it so much that I've, I guess, up to this point now you know, many, many decades later I feel like I've built up an incredible resilience to stress, like I don't feel stress as much. Yes, so these days, I guess, when I have felt stress, it has been much more threatening, I would have to say so. Certainly I would feel it in terms of like again, for me, the symptoms of nausea is probably something that's pretty extreme, but before that it would be that racing heart, it would be the sort of tight throat, it would be the sort of sweaty palms, those sort of classic symptoms that you would see in a panic attack. So I can recognize those signs very early in terms of what I have done.
Speaker 2:I guess is that, excuse me, it's usually been that I've got too much on and there's some sort of time pressure happening, so it's a chance to sort of go OK, I need to step back, I need to sacrifice something in order to get something else done. That stresses me a lot. Once I get that off my plate and I start to chop away, chop away at these things, things will get better. So it's been a very practical sort of method to get to the core of what the issue is. But certainly breathing techniques has been the immediate thing that I would try to do, and also be aware of my heart and try to really slow down that heart rate in conjunction with those breathing techniques.
Speaker 1:And what's your go to breathing technique? Just out of interest.
Speaker 2:It's probably just breathing, because I think what happens when we're stressed at least for when I'm stressed is that we're not so conscious about our breathing. We're not doing a regular breathing. It's fairly shallow. We start to put up that carbon dioxide which then would lead to the panic attacks. For me, so certainly it's more like just regular breaths, just sort of bringing it back to sort of relaxing and definitely accompanying that having a very relaxing mindset and move myself towards that and focus on it'll be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, michael. Thank you for sharing that. It's a great skill to have that level of self-awareness, to know the symptoms and then to jump into some breathing techniques, and it's something I always recommend clients to do, something that I actually just had to remind myself to do. Yesterday I was racing to Sydney to do a well, to be part of a graduation ceremony, as another area of work that I do. I had booked the wrong flight. I had booked Sydney to Adelaide rather than Adelaide to Sydney complete stressor and then got to the talk and had to sit there and do my own breathing techniques Ah, quite ridiculous. So, michael, most listeners are aware that sleep and stress are closely linked, that stress adversely affects sleep quality duration and while insufficient sleep will increase stress levels. Why is that so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's certainly what we would call a bi-directionality. You know, one affects the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the connecting parts of that is really, if you think about it, stress is when we are physiologically and you would also say mentally at our most aroused, like in terms of what we call hyperarousal, and that's the complete opposite of sleep. So sleep is that you are completely de-aroused physiologically, you're completely relaxed mentally, you're not sort of having a right, you shouldn't have a racing mind, although that's exactly what people can get and that leads to insomnia. Yeah, so really there are two ends of the spectrum. So, like you're sort of suggesting there, it's if we are feeling incredibly stressed levels like, say, for example, if you were to measure this, you would have a higher frequency EEG, which means that you are really switched on at night when you should be starting to wind down. You should have more relaxing, say, for example, what we call alpha waves.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And you would also have a higher elevated heart rate, for example. And you need the opposite. You need to sort of fall asleep in such a way that you actually remove what's called the sympathetic nervous system. It sort of goes into the background. So there's a parasympathetic nervous system that takes over and clearly if you don't get enough sleep certain facets about that and the quality of sleep it doesn't prepare you well to tolerate sleep the next day.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:So hence this can be quite cyclic and people can get caught in that sort of compounding stress, certainly throughout the week and weeks and months.
Speaker 1:And so what do you say to people that seem to be caught in that kind of stress and insufficient sleep cycle? What are some practical steps they can do to try and get themselves out of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the two are interrelated. It's really looking at what you would say, the contributing factors. So when, when you're doing what you would call, say, psychological interview, when someone comes in, that sounds really intense but it's actually like a conversation. So I would basically say that people look, you know, sleep can be affected by a whole range of different things, like heaps of things, even like the ability to fall asleep. It could be caffeine, it could be stress, it could be your body clock is out of timing. So I've got to ask lots of questions going to be a lot of answers from you, and then basically I'll be able to determine which are the ones, are the strongest things that are affecting your inability to fall asleep, and stress can be a huge one of those. Certainly, some of the questions that I would be asking would be about their occupation that seems to be a big source of financial stress, I should say of stress, but also financial stress, especially these days, can be another big one and relationships. Those are sort of three, sort of common factors that you tap into so you get an understanding, and it's really fascinating because what happens when people are settling down to fall asleep?
Speaker 2:I guess what we've learned is. Usually they'll be on some sort of device which is you know, I've got my thoughts on that, yeah, and then at some point they've got to switch that off. They're in the dark, they shut their eyes and that's when those worries and stresses and thoughts that were in the background, that weren't dealt with, come to the forefront of their mind and that's when they're starting to have difficulty falling asleep. That's when they start to get worked up and feel more stressed. So, clearly, one way to tackle that is that you've got some quick, short term ways of trying to deal with those sorts of thoughts.
Speaker 2:But you've also got what we call cognitive therapy for insomnia, which takes a lot of work. It takes many weeks and a lot of practice. It really focuses on identifying what are these really unhelpful thoughts and taking time to examine those thoughts with evidence for and against. You know how likely are they going to be true? If they are, what's the consequences of that, what's a different way of thinking about it, and that takes a lot of weeks really to tackle. But the other aspect I mean that's the sleep angle, but then there's the stress angle. What is actually causing the stress and what is the problem solving that can be done to tackle that one there as well. So it's like a two pronged approach where you do tackle aspects of sleep to improve that, but you also tackle aspects of the stress.
Speaker 2:So you're trying to sort of really de-arouse the person over the 24 hour period.
Speaker 1:Would there be other practical things that are outside of that cognitive behavioral therapy that might help?
Speaker 2:For sure. And what's what's fascinating and I guess I didn't really tap into this is that because I'm a scientist, I also like to sort of change one thing at a time and see what the result is on the other. And you know, the first time that we evaluated what we were doing in terms of our therapy for sleep, we were only focused on the sleep aspect and not tackling the direct issues with stress and it was fascinating that you would see.
Speaker 2:you know, when we would analyze the data from 80 to 100 people that went through our service, you would see that their scores, not only on stress but anxiety and depression symptoms, will come down. And we're not even tackling that. We're sort of tackling sleep, which does go to show at least one direction you improve sleep, you improve those things. But some of the some of the things is really to sort of tackle that mind racing, those unhelpful thoughts at night, without having to go into the full on cognitive therapy. Some examples are that we have recently done a survey that was published earlier this year showing that people do actually use technology to distract themselves from their worries about six out of 10 people. So in some ways it's a bit of a bandaid effect, but it's also probably the lesser of two evils. You know they do that because if they don't they're going to be lying there in the dark having an awful time.
Speaker 1:That makes sense Having difficulty falling asleep.
Speaker 2:Other techniques one, probably one of the best that we've researched is a simple mindfulness body scan that's done when people are trying to fall asleep. We found that for those people that were having difficulty falling asleep, which is usually longer than 30 minutes or more to fall asleep yes, and this particular group that we analyzed their average was 50, so almost one hour of the time taken to fall asleep. After listening to a 15 minute mindfulness body scan for five nights, then their time taken to fall asleep was shaved by half.
Speaker 1:It was 25 minutes and then that is incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a very simple technique you don't have to go through all of the hard work in many weeks of doing something like cognitive therapy.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you're just sort of training yourself to do it every night. So I imagine by the time you get to the fifth time during the week your body sort of gets into the habit of doing it and then knows that it's sign off time and relaxed time.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that the key thing about the body scan that we use is that it does two things which we've touched upon, which is that, if your mind starts to wander towards what you've got to do tomorrow, what's happened today, you know, some of these mindfulness body scans will say now, if you started to do that, bring your mind back to where you are, you know, think about how your head's hitting the pillow, how your body is touching the mattress. And that's what it means, that present moment, rather than worrying, you know, forward or backwards, and it's also focusing on relaxing the body, so it's both a relaxation of the mind and the body. So I think that's why it was so potent and worked in these situations.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic and I might try and get details of the mind body scan that you might recommend and see if I can put that in the show notes. What might be your, say, top three tips that people who are desperate for sleep or highly stressed, what can they do just to prioritize sleep and just make sure they're getting the quality and the duration that they need?
Speaker 2:Yeah, always an excellent question. It's a common question.
Speaker 1:You might need more than three.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's a way to sort of what provides the best return on investment, so to speak. So, indeed, one thing I have to always address and we've touched upon it is technology use. A lot of people will tell you don't use technology in the hour before bed. Now, our research team is one of the leading groups in the world when it comes to the research on technology use before sleep. We've tried to disrupt sleep with call of duty in the hour before bed, with bright iPads in people's faces, which struggled, believe it or not. And this is where there's a disparity between what people will read on the internet or even get from chat GPT because it does source a lot of its information from the internet and research.
Speaker 2:So what we now suggest is that, when we've looked at various studies, one of the most harmless things for sleep is watching TV. It actually has a near zero correlation with sleep. Even a recent study from a group in Switzerland showed that. The cliff hangers that you get at the end of an episode, yes, they do create a little bit of arousal you know elevated heart rate but people actually fall asleep a few minutes faster compared to one that doesn't have it. So there's enough evidence to suggest to watch TV, and it doesn't necessarily mean you bring a big TV, you can just bring your laptop in. But it certainly does.
Speaker 2:From what I've seen from the research and from clinical practice. It helps to distract people from those worries. So it doesn't directly deal with them, but at least it gives them a bit of a distraction. We found that a third of people fall asleep while trying to watch TV as well. So who knows, it might be a nice sleep aid. And furthermore, people sort of then, especially when they've had that experience of insomnia, it's really turned from their bedroom being a negative place you know of all of these negative experiences to a more positive one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, I like that. They'll be mad. They'll be music to many listeners. Ears bring the device in them. Might not be do wonders for the relationship, but if you're at a desperate point and you really need just to distract and feel calmer, I get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get it. That's really a slip tip number one. Slip tip number two is a bit more of a don't and you know we've talked about this before and I went on a health challenge in 2018 to see if I could go 365 consecutive days without alcohol and fail it after three months.
Speaker 2:Then after that I managed to do it and still are that. I am that way and when I did that I got very fascinated in the alcohol research but also the sleep and alcohol research and people keep blaming technology use. It probably accounts for a 2% relationship with sleep. The biggest well, the biggest factor is sleep biology. We've mentioned that before about circadian rhythms and sleep pressure. But the next behavioral one, the biggest one, is alcohol. Yeah, absolutely is terrible for sleep. It really has that bad relationship.
Speaker 2:And just to sort of give some examples, what people will notice is that it helps them relax, especially if you know you're a lawyer, you've got a full on workload, you don't have much time, you don't necessarily want to go into the sleep medications.
Speaker 2:Something is accessible, it's a de stress or it is a muscle relaxant and people fall asleep and if they get caught in that regular behavior they'll probably find that they'll be waking up at some point in the morning and that's when they're going to get all of these thoughts and worries and so forth, because alcohol does disrupt sleep.
Speaker 2:But you know, this podcast is about stress and one of the best aspects about stress regulation when it comes to sleep is called REM sleep. Rem sleep is something that will happen in the second half of the night. There's great research now to show that getting decent, continuous REM sleep almost like inoculates you to the point of certainly resilience of any stresses that happen the next day. So you're preparing for your stress the next day and alcohol suppresses REM sleep. So we've seen this over the years, like when I started working in an insomnia clinic at a repatriation hospital, a lot of Vietnam vets you know they were taught to deal with their stress with alcohol and chronically it's been one of the worst things for their mental health and for their sleep. And then, as they're getting off the grog, as I would say, they are starting to get a lot more positive, a lot better and a lot better handling of their stress.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I know that's a don't but maybe a do is maybe have less alcohol, start with that or try some alcohol free options.
Speaker 1:Michael, you know that's music to my ears. I love that point. I'm really glad you raised it. Certainly you know I'm an alcohol free woman and my sleep quality is now something that I would never give up for the sake of a few glasses of wine and just listeners. You can go to Episode 8 of the Not Drinking Today podcast and that's all about alcohol and sleep and particularly you know what occurs to your sleep when you do give up and then how it will benefit you in the long run. So thank you for that. That's a great tip.
Speaker 2:Cool, cool. And then one's really around education and to give people some examples, I would hope you know I am very biased, but if we've got about I don't know 140 blogs on WinkSleeponline where we talk about various aspects of sleep and you can subscribe to that newsletter as well, so that will give you a lot of education. I think the greater knowledge you have, the less stress you can become. I also work for SleepCycle, which is the world's biggest app. It's been downloaded more than 60 million times. So in terms of return on investment, I'm going to just call it and say, you know, for $40 a year or $50, I think it's $40. That's not much compared to a lot of sleep things that you get these days. And not only can you do tracking, not only does it have a alarm that gently wakes you up, but there's a lot of education that we're putting into that app as well.
Speaker 2:If you like podcasts, obviously you know listen to yours, but if it's specifically about sleep, I've been listening to a lot of them and I would have to say Matthew Walker's podcast is the most accurate. You know, matt is a sleep scientist. He is very careful about the accuracy of his information and if I can do a comparison, because I think a lot of people have also started listening to someone like Andrew Huberman's podcast. I've listened to Andrew's podcast on sleep and for every three facts that he mentions, one of them is incorrect.
Speaker 2:Whereas Matt is like probably 99% correct. So that's just one example of where you can get sort of really highly credible and valid sleep information and the more you learn, the better you'll be in control of your sleep when you look at. I mean, clearly sleep is important, we will say that, and certainly there's data to show that. You know, if you're getting less than six hours sleep, less than five hours sleep, yes, that can have like a 10% 11% impairment on work performance and that's primarily from what's called presentism, that's not absenteeism.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I can see your face in a slight. Yeah, okay, so people often know absenteeism is that you don't rock up for work because you're not sleeping well, but present is that you rock up to work but you're not fully there, not firing on all cylinders. This is the key thing there and I try to, I guess, stress to people that where we should be concerned about a lack of sleep is when people are in a situation where it is life and death. So you're talking about surgeons, you're talking about people that are driving trucks. These are the sorts of people that we need to be seriously concerned about when it's not getting enough sleep. So you know. Hence, if you're a teacher, if you're a lawyer, if you are a judge, yes, you've got to do very important things, but it may not be life and death. You know, expect some mistakes.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, if you're really feeling that you're very sleepy because of a bad night's sleep, you take things a little bit slower, step by step, believe it or not.
Speaker 2:Just a little bit slow, not like really slow. You don't want to further stress yourselves out, and there are coping mechanisms, you know. Like some people will say you shouldn't have caffeine, avoid caffeine. There's a bit of a fad going around. No, you can actually have caffeine, yeah, and caffeine is in multiple forms and some of our research has shown that when you have caffeine after 6pm that's when it can affect your sleep, and only a small amount, and that's at a population level. So you will have some people that are even more tolerant to the effects of caffeine, some that can be hypersensitive. So it's really a case that, yes, you can have a coping mechanism there to keep you going and knowing when to have it, certainly in the morning to get yourself going. But there is a part of our circadian rhythm shortly after lunch, called a post lunch dip, where you can also start to feel that sleepiness coming in and try to predict that. Try to have some coffee before then or, if you like coffee.
Speaker 2:But that's something to experiment with.
Speaker 1:And then what are some of the intrusive thoughts that might be signs that you could do with some cognitive behavioral therapy to kind of diminish those ruminations and those thoughts that might be keeping you awake, because I know that this is a huge problem for many of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, like in response to your or similar to your first question about the evolution symptoms, I guess what I've seen in terms of evolution and when people really need to sort of go, oh, hang on, it's time to do something, is that it's highly common as a theme, a thinking theme, to have what's called rehearsal and planning. So basically, planning is what do I got to do tomorrow or in the next few days, and rehearsal is what have I done today? And, going over that, that sort of group which is also classified as worry, which is future worry, and the what ifs yes, the what ifs Exactly, they're terrible and the rumination is reflecting negatively, you know, in a bad way, on what's happened today. And that can happen because we can tend to be negative more so during the evening and overnight as opposed during the light of day. But that's the top category when it comes to analyzing what people think about when they're having difficulty falling asleep.
Speaker 2:The second category is about sleep and its consequences. It's, after all of that's been exhausted about the rehearsal and planning, and people then start to go, oh, hang on, I'm not sleeping well, I need to get to sleep. I've only got this much time of sleep that I can get and when people start to get to that second category, that's almost like the sign of like I need to do something.
Speaker 1:OK, that's really good advice. When might the lack of sleep become dangerous? So when might it be a sign that you're sort of teething on the edge of potentially burnout, or I guess you're just not coping well, so you're probably going from ruminations just to not sleeping at all? What are the signs there that you it's reached a level that's actually a bit risky for your mental health?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. I would hope that people are aware and usually, I guess the reason that you're showing that people are not, when it comes to driving, their perception of their driving performance seems to be better than the objective measurements of that, which is very concerning. So I guess for people that might be taking public transport to work or something like that, you know that's, that's OK. Obviously, don't stand too close to the curb just in case you lose balance. Well, but for people that are driving, I think that's that's where it's more of a concern. I think that well before that sort of happens, people would be realizing that they're not sleeping well. That they're taking a long time to fall asleep is probably one of the first indicators and is happening frequently, like at least three or four times a week.
Speaker 2:Because I guess you know, in terms of one nugget of sleep knowledge is that, looking across multiple studies, we have this thing called sleep pressure. So even if you've had three nights in a row of bad sleep, people often reach for, maybe sleeping pill. But the thing is we've got this natural buildup of sleep pressure that's been occurring and the data show whether you're an infant or an adult. After about three to four nights, sleep pressure kicks in and you have a higher chance of having a better night's sleep. So we have this natural catch up way that sleep is going to push its way in eventually at some point. But hence why you won't have necessarily seven nights of bad sleep, but if you're having three to four or more more more, that's OK I would have to say OK, and what can a sleep coach do to help?
Speaker 1:or, and how might that differ from a sleep psychologist? Because I know that there are? There's a difference between the two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure I mean like traditionally, especially like if you went back when I started, and even probably five, ten years ago, primarily the people that were trained and qualified to treat sleep issues were from a background of psychology, psychology or and when I say psychology I mean like clinical psychology or medicine. Those were the primary two areas. But I think what's happened now is certainly there's a big coaching industry. That's occurred over the last five to several years, and I would have to say that probably ten years ago is when we saw the introduction of baby sleep coaches and people that had a passion for helping parents sleep better and helping their infants sleep better. But now that's translated to adult sleep coaching and I think that the thing the difference between the two is obviously one has had to jump through a whole bunch of hoops to get those qualifications at a postgraduate university level and then done some further training as well.
Speaker 2:When it comes to the clinical psychology medicine for coach, it can be wide and varied so you can get people that are quite highly educated. So say, for example, for my business at Wink, we've got online courses where it's basically me teaching people cognitive techniques, behavioral techniques for insomnia, light therapy, melatonin, infesticated rhythm issues and so forth, so they're getting it directly from the source. Furthermore, they're part of a membership where they get ongoing training and supervision. We talk about cases, so they're improving along those lines, but there's been a lot of coaches that don't necessarily even have a health background, for example, or they're not necessarily trained in how to interpret research. They think that maybe looking at one study means that that's the truth, as opposed to looking broadly at a number of different studies.
Speaker 2:So I would hope that we get to a level where not only can sleep coaching be regulated but also integrated with us that have done this health profession, because if you look at models over in the UK where they recognise a lot of people need help say, for example, broadly in mental health issues, they developed a model where clinical psychologists were supervising and training people that were learning these new techniques from different backgrounds, whether it was counselling or other groups that didn't necessarily have CBT. And I think if we had a model like that where sleep coaches could perform because I mean, sleep coaches are a dime a dozen. There's a lot of them now. They're probably producing at a rate greater than health professionals and that's a great way to target sleep, because sleep is massive problems across the community, but they need to touch base with experts and they need that supervision with experts. That's the best model to actually provide the best service for the community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, michael. There's probably a lot of spots there for listeners to go to, so I'll put in information about that podcast and sleep cycle Where's the best spot quickly just to find you and to look at the courses and the resources that you've got online.
Speaker 2:Yep, just Google Wink, Sleep, whether it's one word or two words, and hopefully our website should come up and we have the tab for the blogs there that you can have a look at and just that, your Parousal search tab there as well. You can sign up to the newsletter if you like as well. And, in terms of like, if you feel like a career change and you want to sort of get into this sort of area, have a look at our membership, because that will have a huge amount of learning in there. It's only, I think, $14 US a month and we have an online group as well where we have a lot of discussions, but that also gives you a 50% discount for the online courses that we've got there and we provide a certification in that.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. It has been an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. Thank you, I think this is such a fascinating topic and they're really great tips that you've shared. Thank you, michael.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
